216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

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wellsm
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216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#1 Post by wellsm » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:21 am

Well, the problem with my lack of brakes was tracked to the ABS pump, a replacement has now been fitted but this morning I got the below message from the garage:

"Part looks correct and is fitted but we now have now found out that we need a special tool to bleed brakes (have already tried manually – no success). Could you put the feelers out on the forum to try and locate the tool?"

Anybody have any idea where I could get one of these, or borrow one, please.

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#2 Post by RoverRevival » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:29 am

Just need a gravel track

skid a couple of times, top up, skid a couple of times top up should be right

Just got to get the abs system pumping
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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#3 Post by wellsm » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:17 pm

Blimey, as simple as that?!

I'll tell them, would be nice to get it working again :-)

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#4 Post by GTiJohn » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:56 pm

1234dist wrote:Just need a gravel track

skid a couple of times, top up, skid a couple of times top up should be right

Just got to get the abs system pumping
err, no.....

That works sometimes on a Bosch ABS system fitted to all cars with non-Honda engines but not for pump changes on the Honda ALB system fitted to Honda-engined cars, such as a 216 GTi.

There is a procedure and a special tool that's a good idea to use if you don't want to spray yourself and your car with high pressure brake fluid. I'm sure I've got the details in either a Rover or a Honda Service manual.

I'll go and have a butchers, scan it and bung it on here as an image.

There's probably ways around using the actual tool, if your ingenious enough :)
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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#5 Post by RoverRevival » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:46 pm

50% right, i'll accept that :book
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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#6 Post by wellsm » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:05 pm

I'll go and have a butchers, scan it and bung it on here as an image.
That would be really handy, thanks. It's all getting to be a bit of a saga!

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#7 Post by GTiJohn » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:06 pm

This might be useful - http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_honda.htm - I did have some success getting a new pump fitted to my cabrio and getting it to actually run, by powering the input pin in the connector attached to the slam panel directly, but it wouldn't pump fluid :mouthshut

Never did fix it....

These 2 pages are out of the Honda workshop technician's training manual for ALB1 & 2 (you've got ALB2). The 'checker referred to is just a way of powering the pump motor which you can do as above.

Image

Image

Good luck !
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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#8 Post by wellsm » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:14 pm

This is really handy and I don't think I would have found it for myself on Google.

Many thanks indeed, will report on the outcome :-)

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#9 Post by threelitre » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:40 pm

I find it difficult to think how the ALB pump could be responsible for bad brakes. If the ALB is faulty (lamp lit), than the brakes will in theory just be like any normal brakes.

I once managed to vent some air from the ALB (too low fluid when the pump went on, so air went into the accumulator) by filling the reservoir and than activating the ALB on a snowy road repeatedly. It worked well, but was rather messy, as the air-brake fluid mixture created lots of foam that even seeped out under the closed cap of the reservoir. I then removed most of the foam and repeated the procedure. After several attempts it was perfect again. But I do not know if this works on a system that was empty. Did I say it was very messy?

Regards,

Alexander

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#10 Post by wellsm » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:58 pm

Well we have all given up. I cannot locate the the checker tool at all and the T bar thing is $148 which is £100 before I even start to pay the garage. As happened with my 220 turbo, it is time to stop spending money on it and move on.

I will get some photos and put it on here as a spares or repairs shortly. A shame as the car has only done 50k miles and overall is in pretty decent condition.

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#11 Post by GTiJohn » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:44 pm

You're right not to keep spending but don't give up just yet!

You can manage without the checker and you might be able to rig up an alternative to the bleed tool.

You could always convert your car to non-ALB. You just need to find the right one in a scrappy. Harbury Breakers had one recently....

Interested?
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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#12 Post by threelitre » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:19 am

Ever thought of taking the car to a Honda dealer, they should have all the tools needed. This is what I did when I had the fluid in the ALB unit changed. It was certainly much cheaper than buying the tools. The car should be driveable - or not? With a dis-functional ALB the brakes should just work like normal brakes. If not I suspect the problem is somewhere else than in the ALB circuit.

What happens when the ABS pump starts to run? (It will do so if the car's speed goes over 4-5mph). The pump can be heard running. If the pressure cannot be built up, it will stop again after some time (30sec or so) and illuminates the ALB lamp - give it another try then. If the system was empty or lacking pressure the fluid level in the reservoir will drop - take care that it will not suck air again. Once the pump stops running with the pressure reached, you can try a full stop on gravel or a wet road that should kick the ALB on. The pump will run again and if there was air in the system a lot of foam will come into the reservoir. Syphon or spoon the foam out (very messy), top up and give it another try. This worked for me.

Make sure before that the ALB light is not on due to another error (broken wheel sensor), there is a LED in the ECU behind the boot side cover that will flash the error codes.

If the brakes do not work at all or not well, I'd look for the problem in the main circuit and not on the ALB unit.

Regards,

Alexander

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#13 Post by wellsm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:54 pm

Thank you both for your inputs :-)

John, that may be an answer but at 63 and not very bendy any more I am not really up for diving around the scrappies now!

Alexander, my problem is I am reliant on the garage as I am a technical numpty! The brakes failed on me on the M4 two or three months ago and it was thought to be the brake servo. I could not find a replacement for love or money so the plan was to send it to a servo re-builder to see of they could fix it. When they went to take it off the car they decided it was not the servo but the master cylinder so I lobbed out £200+ on that. It worked for three days then the same thing, also on the M4 (going to work!). What happens is that the pedal drops about and inch and then the car is worse to stop than my 1962 mini was 40 odd years ago...............but that didn't really go fast anyway :-)

They had it back and decided it must be the ALB so I got a replacement on Ebay and now we are at the stage described above.

I have suggested to them that we transfer it to a Honda garage if we can find one near me but I don't want to spend much more as I was going to sell this one to make drive space for a ZS 180.

Cheers, Mark

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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#14 Post by GTiJohn » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:09 pm

Having the brake pedal dropping is no fun - was the pedal then soft or hard when this happened?

Which part of the ALB system did they change - the valve block (top of the diag on p35) or the power unit (bottom right)?

If it the former you've got more bleeding to do.... but either way you've got to bleed the high-pressure half of the system.

Alexander is right in saying that the brakes should operate properly even with the ALB system not functioning. This is good for you but not good for an MOT.

If the brakes are working properly then it has been known to unplug the connectors from the ECU so that the warning light never comes on and if the MOT tester doesn't notice that the car has ABS fitted, it could pass the MOT test :mouthshut
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Re: 216 Gti with ALB (ABS) - brake bleeding tool

#15 Post by threelitre » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:37 pm

wellsm wrote:The brakes failed on me on the M4 two or three months ago and it was thought to be the brake servo. I could not find a replacement for love or money so the plan was to send it to a servo re-builder to see of they could fix it. When they went to take it off the car they decided it was not the servo but the master cylinder so I lobbed out £200+ on that. It worked for three days then the same thing, also on the M4 (going to work!). What happens is that the pedal drops about and inch and then the car is worse to stop than my 1962 mini was 40 odd years ago...............but that didn't really go fast anyway :-)
We've had exactly the same on our 216 with ALB. It was the master cylinder - I first blamed the ALB, as I did not think the master cylinder on a dual circuit brake can do such a thing - the garage immediately said brake master fault and they were right. I have no clue how your garage thought the brake servo could be at fault, as there is no possible way the brake servo can make the brakes fail. And yes, the master cylinder was a very expensive one as it was only available through Rover or Honda main dealers.

In theory the valve block on the ALB can reduce brake pressure (as that is what it is for), but this should only happen in an emergency. Can an electrical fault be thought that would NOT trigger the self test (and light up the ALB light), but move the valves in the valve block to reduce pressure?

I am inclined to say, that the brake master is at fault again (yeah, I know ...). Does the ALB light work as it should (go on at ign on and then off after a short time)? Did the ALB light come on in the cases of brake failure?

In any way - if the car is driven now (with air in the ALB system) the following should happen: The pump will activate itself when the car is faster than 4 to 6 mph. As no pressure can be built up, the pump will run longer than a pre-determined time and an error will be flagged. This will lead to the isolation of the ALB system and the complete brake circuit will work as if no ALB is fitted. That said, the car can safely be driven with a broken ALB - and if the error occurs in a situation with disabled ALB, I would look elsewhere to find the problem.

Regards,

Alexander

Regards,

Alexander

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